Comments on: Chip Kidd Responds to Bat-Manga Cover Credit Controversy – Updated http://comics212.net/2008/11/07/chip-kidd-responds-to-cover-credit-controversy/ Never Safe For Work Thu, 18 Mar 2010 21:47:59 -0700 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Going batty - You Are Anime http://comics212.net/2008/11/07/chip-kidd-responds-to-cover-credit-controversy/comment-page-1/#comment-104547 Going batty - You Are Anime Tue, 18 Nov 2008 19:32:22 +0000 http://comics212.net/2008/11/07/chip-kidd-responds-to-cover-credit-controversy/#comment-104547 [...] by admin on Nov.18, 2008, under Anime Bat-Manga is certainly attracting plenty of attention; Geoff Boucher blogs about it at the LA Times and is clearly taken by it, although he notes the controversy surrounding the decision not to credit Jiro Kuwata on the cover. Meanwhile, Chip Kidd tells his side of things at Blog@Newsarama, and Christopher Butcher defends him at Comics 212. Hipster Dad is not convinced (via Comics Worth Reading), but I think John Jakala has the most measured and sensible take on the whole thing. [...] [...] by admin on Nov.18, 2008, under Anime Bat-Manga is certainly attracting plenty of attention; Geoff Boucher blogs about it at the LA Times and is clearly taken by it, although he notes the controversy surrounding the decision not to credit Jiro Kuwata on the cover. Meanwhile, Chip Kidd tells his side of things at Blog@Newsarama, and Christopher Butcher defends him at Comics 212. Hipster Dad is not convinced (via Comics Worth Reading), but I think John Jakala has the most measured and sensible take on the whole thing. [...]

]]> By: How Jiro Got Fingered, or, If This Is a Teapot, Call Me Helen Hunt « Picture Poetry http://comics212.net/2008/11/07/chip-kidd-responds-to-cover-credit-controversy/comment-page-1/#comment-103792 How Jiro Got Fingered, or, If This Is a Teapot, Call Me Helen Hunt « Picture Poetry Tue, 11 Nov 2008 02:49:16 +0000 http://comics212.net/2008/11/07/chip-kidd-responds-to-cover-credit-controversy/#comment-103792 [...] How Jiro Got Fingered, or, If This Is a Teapot, Call Me Helen Hunt Published November 10, 2008 appropriation , batman , bitching , chip kidd , comics , manga , pantheon How cruel of Portland’s Wordstock Festival to have taken up my time last weekend, while the Bat-Manga thing suddenly became a slightly bigger deal! Slow news day, I guess. Luckily Chris Butcher already posted Kidd’s response, so the party continued without me. [...] [...] How Jiro Got Fingered, or, If This Is a Teapot, Call Me Helen Hunt Published November 10, 2008 appropriation , batman , bitching , chip kidd , comics , manga , pantheon How cruel of Portland’s Wordstock Festival to have taken up my time last weekend, while the Bat-Manga thing suddenly became a slightly bigger deal! Slow news day, I guess. Luckily Chris Butcher already posted Kidd’s response, so the party continued without me. [...]

]]> By: MangaBlog » Blog Archive » Going batty http://comics212.net/2008/11/07/chip-kidd-responds-to-cover-credit-controversy/comment-page-1/#comment-103757 MangaBlog » Blog Archive » Going batty Mon, 10 Nov 2008 16:53:08 +0000 http://comics212.net/2008/11/07/chip-kidd-responds-to-cover-credit-controversy/#comment-103757 [...] Bat-Manga is certainly attracting plenty of attention; Geoff Boucher blogs about it at the LA Times and is clearly taken by it, although he notes the controversy surrounding the decision not to credit Jiro Kuwata on the cover. Meanwhile, Chip Kidd tells his side of things at Blog@Newsarama, and Christopher Butcher defends him at Comics 212. Hipster Dad is not convinced (via Comics Worth Reading), but I think John Jakala has the most measured and sensible take on the whole thing. [...] [...] Bat-Manga is certainly attracting plenty of attention; Geoff Boucher blogs about it at the LA Times and is clearly taken by it, although he notes the controversy surrounding the decision not to credit Jiro Kuwata on the cover. Meanwhile, Chip Kidd tells his side of things at Blog@Newsarama, and Christopher Butcher defends him at Comics 212. Hipster Dad is not convinced (via Comics Worth Reading), but I think John Jakala has the most measured and sensible take on the whole thing. [...]

]]> By: Journalista - the news weblog of The Comics Journal » Blog Archive » Nov. 10, 2008: Do the wrong thing http://comics212.net/2008/11/07/chip-kidd-responds-to-cover-credit-controversy/comment-page-1/#comment-103740 Journalista - the news weblog of The Comics Journal » Blog Archive » Nov. 10, 2008: Do the wrong thing Mon, 10 Nov 2008 11:17:06 +0000 http://comics212.net/2008/11/07/chip-kidd-responds-to-cover-credit-controversy/#comment-103740 [...] “First, Bat-Manga is not just about the work of [Jiro] Kuwata, although that of course makes up the bulk of the book. Rather, it is about chronicling the phenomenon — however short-lived — of Batman in Japan in 1966. To that end, the book itself as an act of pop-culture reconnaissance is entirely the product of Saul Ferris, Geoff Spear, and myself. Mr. Kuwata is prominently mentioned on the front flap (as is translator Anne Ishii) and on the back cover, so it’s not like we’re trying to deny him any credit. I would not have made the considerable effort to track him down, interview, and photograph him if that were the case. It is worth noting that before we took it upon ourselves to do this, NO ONE had any interested in collecting this material for reprinting, least of Shonen King (and they still don’t — Bat-manga has amazingly failed to find a Japanese publisher).” - Chip Kidd [...] [...] “First, Bat-Manga is not just about the work of [Jiro] Kuwata, although that of course makes up the bulk of the book. Rather, it is about chronicling the phenomenon — however short-lived — of Batman in Japan in 1966. To that end, the book itself as an act of pop-culture reconnaissance is entirely the product of Saul Ferris, Geoff Spear, and myself. Mr. Kuwata is prominently mentioned on the front flap (as is translator Anne Ishii) and on the back cover, so it’s not like we’re trying to deny him any credit. I would not have made the considerable effort to track him down, interview, and photograph him if that were the case. It is worth noting that before we took it upon ourselves to do this, NO ONE had any interested in collecting this material for reprinting, least of Shonen King (and they still don’t — Bat-manga has amazingly failed to find a Japanese publisher).” – Chip Kidd [...]

]]> By: Garth http://comics212.net/2008/11/07/chip-kidd-responds-to-cover-credit-controversy/comment-page-1/#comment-103710 Garth Sun, 09 Nov 2008 21:51:35 +0000 http://comics212.net/2008/11/07/chip-kidd-responds-to-cover-credit-controversy/#comment-103710 "I think it’s oversimplifying to say that parts of this book aren’t just a straight up reprint" The operative phrase being "parts of the book". Not "the entire book". If it WAS the entire book, there would be something do discuss here, but it's not. “I think it’s oversimplifying to say that parts of this book aren’t just a straight up reprint”

The operative phrase being “parts of the book”.

Not “the entire book”. If it WAS the entire book, there would be something do discuss here, but it’s not.

]]> By: Blog@Newsarama » Blog Archive » Quote, Unquote http://comics212.net/2008/11/07/chip-kidd-responds-to-cover-credit-controversy/comment-page-1/#comment-103700 Blog@Newsarama » Blog Archive » Quote, Unquote Sun, 09 Nov 2008 18:09:09 +0000 http://comics212.net/2008/11/07/chip-kidd-responds-to-cover-credit-controversy/#comment-103700 [...] ” . . . there’s plenty to discuss in terms of how a book like this could have been put together, but this cover credit issue has been blown out of all reasonable proportion, and it’s too bad because the book is definitely, definitely worth owning.” - Christopher Butcher aiming to be the voice of reason on a Chip Kidd cover credit “controversy”. [...] [...] ” . . . there’s plenty to discuss in terms of how a book like this could have been put together, but this cover credit issue has been blown out of all reasonable proportion, and it’s too bad because the book is definitely, definitely worth owning.” – Christopher Butcher aiming to be the voice of reason on a Chip Kidd cover credit “controversy”. [...]

]]> By: Holy Bat-Manga controversy! | Bent Corner http://comics212.net/2008/11/07/chip-kidd-responds-to-cover-credit-controversy/comment-page-1/#comment-103688 Holy Bat-Manga controversy! | Bent Corner Sun, 09 Nov 2008 13:05:08 +0000 http://comics212.net/2008/11/07/chip-kidd-responds-to-cover-credit-controversy/#comment-103688 [...] Chip Kidd has responded to the criticism and has offered an analogy: But I would put forth the analogy: when Ken Burns made his documentary on the Civil War, the subsequent book had his name, and his writer Geoffrey Ward, on the front. It did not have the names General Ulysses S. Grant, Robert E. Lee, or Abraham Lincoln, or any contemporary historians that Burns interviewed. That may sound like a stretch, but it’s the same situation. We took it upon ourselves to put this project together because of our love for this material. We spent far more of our own money amassing everything then we’ll ever see out of sales of the book; and without going into details, any money we did get as an advance went right back to Mr. Kuwata, who was thrilled to get it. As he is thrilled with the book—I’ve heard nothing but compliments and thanks from him. [...] [...] Chip Kidd has responded to the criticism and has offered an analogy: But I would put forth the analogy: when Ken Burns made his documentary on the Civil War, the subsequent book had his name, and his writer Geoffrey Ward, on the front. It did not have the names General Ulysses S. Grant, Robert E. Lee, or Abraham Lincoln, or any contemporary historians that Burns interviewed. That may sound like a stretch, but it’s the same situation. We took it upon ourselves to put this project together because of our love for this material. We spent far more of our own money amassing everything then we’ll ever see out of sales of the book; and without going into details, any money we did get as an advance went right back to Mr. Kuwata, who was thrilled to get it. As he is thrilled with the book—I’ve heard nothing but compliments and thanks from him. [...]

]]> By: Chip Kidd Responds to Bat-Manga Controversy - Broken Kode http://comics212.net/2008/11/07/chip-kidd-responds-to-cover-credit-controversy/comment-page-1/#comment-103680 Chip Kidd Responds to Bat-Manga Controversy - Broken Kode Sun, 09 Nov 2008 11:02:46 +0000 http://comics212.net/2008/11/07/chip-kidd-responds-to-cover-credit-controversy/#comment-103680 [...] Chip Kidd Responds to Bat-Manga Controversy - and the make sure to read the followup by Chris on this topic. Seriously don’t people (and I mean the comic blogging community) have better things to discuss? What is this a slow comic week or something? [...] [...] Chip Kidd Responds to Bat-Manga Controversy – and the make sure to read the followup by Chris on this topic. Seriously don’t people (and I mean the comic blogging community) have better things to discuss? What is this a slow comic week or something? [...]

]]> By: Josiah http://comics212.net/2008/11/07/chip-kidd-responds-to-cover-credit-controversy/comment-page-1/#comment-103675 Josiah Sun, 09 Nov 2008 08:40:12 +0000 http://comics212.net/2008/11/07/chip-kidd-responds-to-cover-credit-controversy/#comment-103675 I think it's oversimplifying to say that parts of this book aren't just a straight up reprint of the Kuwata material. Sure it's copied lovingly from beautifully aged, archival newsprint, but he's still just reprinting stories. (That is, you're reading the actual story, just like its original audience did; you're not just looking at a picture of some wonderful toy you don't own.) If Kidd had done the same thing with Buddha (as opposed to just designing the covers), copying all the pages from yellowed, timeworn magazines, then it wouldn't have justified leaving Tezuka's name off the cover. No room for argument there; it just woudln't. (I'm just opining, and not looking for a fight.) I think it’s oversimplifying to say that parts of this book aren’t just a straight up reprint of the Kuwata material. Sure it’s copied lovingly from beautifully aged, archival newsprint, but he’s still just reprinting stories. (That is, you’re reading the actual story, just like its original audience did; you’re not just looking at a picture of some wonderful toy you don’t own.)

If Kidd had done the same thing with Buddha (as opposed to just designing the covers), copying all the pages from yellowed, timeworn magazines, then it wouldn’t have justified leaving Tezuka’s name off the cover.

No room for argument there; it just woudln’t.
(I’m just opining, and not looking for a fight.)

]]> By: Daniel http://comics212.net/2008/11/07/chip-kidd-responds-to-cover-credit-controversy/comment-page-1/#comment-103658 Daniel Sun, 09 Nov 2008 02:19:40 +0000 http://comics212.net/2008/11/07/chip-kidd-responds-to-cover-credit-controversy/#comment-103658 The thing is though, the main selling point on this was the manga, not that toys and other knick knacks. The description on the back is about the manga, not the toys and knick knacks. Most of the interviews were about the manga, not the toys and knick knacks. If he sold this as a retrospective of Batman in 1960s Japan, then fine, no problem. But he didn't. He sold it as a manga and how an American pop icon was interpreted by a sole creator, Jiro Kuwata. The the manga was the meat of the books, and the rest was just well-photographed parsley. Not seeing Jiro Kuwata's name on the front cover credits or a brief bio with the rest is bad form whether Kidd thinks so or not. P. S. "Where was I?" he asks? If I had known about this manga, I would have done all I could to find out more about it to the best of my ability. This stuff is gorgeous. But I am just a poor college student with very, very little means and resources compared to Chip's. I thank him, but he really could have done better. The thing is though, the main selling point on this was the manga, not that toys and other knick knacks. The description on the back is about the manga, not the toys and knick knacks. Most of the interviews were about the manga, not the toys and knick knacks. If he sold this as a retrospective of Batman in 1960s Japan, then fine, no problem. But he didn’t. He sold it as a manga and how an American pop icon was interpreted by a sole creator, Jiro Kuwata. The the manga was the meat of the books, and the rest was just well-photographed parsley. Not seeing Jiro Kuwata’s name on the front cover credits or a brief bio with the rest is bad form whether Kidd thinks so or not.

P. S. “Where was I?” he asks? If I had known about this manga, I would have done all I could to find out more about it to the best of my ability. This stuff is gorgeous. But I am just a poor college student with very, very little means and resources compared to Chip’s. I thank him, but he really could have done better.

]]> By: Josh http://comics212.net/2008/11/07/chip-kidd-responds-to-cover-credit-controversy/comment-page-1/#comment-103649 Josh Sun, 09 Nov 2008 00:43:15 +0000 http://comics212.net/2008/11/07/chip-kidd-responds-to-cover-credit-controversy/#comment-103649 People who make these criticisms tend to be xenophiles who are all too desperate to make assertions of western authors plagiarizing eastern culture. No one who reads this book is going to come away with an idea that Chipp Kidd or any of his co-authors actually created the material being discussed, especially when there are so many mentions and near-love letter prose dedicated to Kuwata. The Schulz argument is patently absurd as well. Of course it's "The Art of Charles Schulz", the book is a study of his work and it's effect on others. Bat-Manga is a study of Batman in Manga form, which just happens to feature a lot of Kuwata. Why aren't you banging the drum slowly for the other manga-ka in there? On top of that, people who compile text books don't credit every single source on the cover, who should Kidd? Get over yourself. People who make these criticisms tend to be xenophiles who are all too desperate to make assertions of western authors plagiarizing eastern culture. No one who reads this book is going to come away with an idea that Chipp Kidd or any of his co-authors actually created the material being discussed, especially when there are so many mentions and near-love letter prose dedicated to Kuwata.

The Schulz argument is patently absurd as well. Of course it’s “The Art of Charles Schulz”, the book is a study of his work and it’s effect on others. Bat-Manga is a study of Batman in Manga form, which just happens to feature a lot of Kuwata. Why aren’t you banging the drum slowly for the other manga-ka in there?

On top of that, people who compile text books don’t credit every single source on the cover, who should Kidd? Get over yourself.

]]> By: Chip Kidd http://comics212.net/2008/11/07/chip-kidd-responds-to-cover-credit-controversy/comment-page-1/#comment-103646 Chip Kidd Sat, 08 Nov 2008 23:33:28 +0000 http://comics212.net/2008/11/07/chip-kidd-responds-to-cover-credit-controversy/#comment-103646 Many thanks, Christopher, I really appreciate it. You hit the nail on the head when you said Bat-Manga is NOT a straight-up reprint. It's a book about Batman in Japan that has a lot of Kuwata's work in it. Abhay's argument is not valid, because Frank King is the sole creator and artist for Gasoline Alley. As was Schulz with Peanuts(duh). Why do I even have to point that out? And why am I bothering to get mired in all this? CK Many thanks, Christopher, I really appreciate it. You hit the nail on the head when you said Bat-Manga is NOT a straight-up reprint. It’s a book about Batman in Japan that has a lot of Kuwata’s work in it.

Abhay’s argument is not valid, because Frank King is the sole creator and artist for Gasoline Alley. As was Schulz with Peanuts(duh). Why do I even have to point that out?

And why am I bothering to get mired in all this?

CK

]]> By: Frank Santoro http://comics212.net/2008/11/07/chip-kidd-responds-to-cover-credit-controversy/comment-page-1/#comment-103645 Frank Santoro Sat, 08 Nov 2008 23:21:12 +0000 http://comics212.net/2008/11/07/chip-kidd-responds-to-cover-credit-controversy/#comment-103645 please forgive me for maybe addressing another "authorship" tangent, but most of the two page spreads of the original manga have been "switched around" for design sake, it seems. We're riffing on it here: http://comicscomicsmag.blogspot.com/2008/10/frank-gets-bat-manga-mania.html?showComment=1226186100000#c2605053854132702358 please forgive me for maybe addressing another “authorship” tangent, but most of the two page spreads of the original manga have been “switched around” for design sake, it seems. We’re riffing on it here:

http://comicscomicsmag.blogspot.com/2008/10/frank-gets-bat-manga-mania.html?showComment=1226186100000#c2605053854132702358

]]> By: Abhay http://comics212.net/2008/11/07/chip-kidd-responds-to-cover-credit-controversy/comment-page-1/#comment-103640 Abhay Sat, 08 Nov 2008 19:50:28 +0000 http://comics212.net/2008/11/07/chip-kidd-responds-to-cover-credit-controversy/#comment-103640 My copy of Walt & Skeezix Volume 2 has a fine Jeet Heer essay, a Chris Ware introduction, and these neat endnotes by Tim Samuelson; there's at least 100 pages of critical writing, photos, obscure sketches, biographical information, letters, and other ephemera. There's no shortage of material about the context of the work there. The only credited author is Frank King, though. How much would Chris Ware have had to add for him to be the author of Gasoline Alley, and not Frank King, exactly? Or if the other essays had been about child-rearing or automobiles, would that have made Chris Ware the author of Gasoline Alley? Where's the line? I don't understand where the line is. But if Mr. Kuwata's happy and being paid? Great! Batman comics come out every single week and I don't exactly remember seeing Jerry Robinson's credit on any of them lately, even on the inside flap. I think that makes the entire conversation at least slightly absurd. P.S. I really like Chip Kidd's work. I have his monograph on my coffee table, and everything. Don't think that Bat-Manga book is for me, though-- no interest, and I don't like how he presented the pages; I'd rather have that Speed Racer collection. My copy of Walt & Skeezix Volume 2 has a fine Jeet Heer essay, a Chris Ware introduction, and these neat endnotes by Tim Samuelson; there’s at least 100 pages of critical writing, photos, obscure sketches, biographical information, letters, and other ephemera. There’s no shortage of material about the context of the work there.

The only credited author is Frank King, though.

How much would Chris Ware have had to add for him to be the author of Gasoline Alley, and not Frank King, exactly? Or if the other essays had been about child-rearing or automobiles, would that have made Chris Ware the author of Gasoline Alley? Where’s the line? I don’t understand where the line is.

But if Mr. Kuwata’s happy and being paid? Great! Batman comics come out every single week and I don’t exactly remember seeing Jerry Robinson’s credit on any of them lately, even on the inside flap. I think that makes the entire conversation at least slightly absurd.

P.S. I really like Chip Kidd’s work. I have his monograph on my coffee table, and everything. Don’t think that Bat-Manga book is for me, though– no interest, and I don’t like how he presented the pages; I’d rather have that Speed Racer collection.

]]> By: Leigh Walton http://comics212.net/2008/11/07/chip-kidd-responds-to-cover-credit-controversy/comment-page-1/#comment-103622 Leigh Walton Sat, 08 Nov 2008 02:00:27 +0000 http://comics212.net/2008/11/07/chip-kidd-responds-to-cover-credit-controversy/#comment-103622 I should really put together a longer response to the email (and I'm somewhat flattered to have been considered the chief bloggy offender)... But I think your point is undercut slightly by the image you chose to illustrate par. 3: the cover of <i>Peanuts</i>, which not only displays "BY SCHULZ" dead center on its front cover but is also subtitled "The Art of Charles M. Schulz." (I am indeed well under 30; my first memories of Batman involve <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Batman-Returns-All-Terrain-Batskiboat-Vehicle/dp/B0013G1L76" rel="nofollow">this toy</a>, FWIW) I should really put together a longer response to the email (and I’m somewhat flattered to have been considered the chief bloggy offender)…

But I think your point is undercut slightly by the image you chose to illustrate par. 3: the cover of Peanuts, which not only displays “BY SCHULZ” dead center on its front cover but is also subtitled “The Art of Charles M. Schulz.”

(I am indeed well under 30; my first memories of Batman involve this toy, FWIW)

]]> By: Bat-Manga Ignores Author » Comics Worth Reading http://comics212.net/2008/11/07/chip-kidd-responds-to-cover-credit-controversy/comment-page-1/#comment-103621 Bat-Manga Ignores Author » Comics Worth Reading Sat, 08 Nov 2008 01:30:35 +0000 http://comics212.net/2008/11/07/chip-kidd-responds-to-cover-credit-controversy/#comment-103621 [...] Update: Chip Kidd responds in pissy fashion: I am heartened that you all have such concern for Mr. Kuwata’s welfare. So here’s a question: where were YOU for the last thirty years, while he was languishing in obscurity both here and in his own country? I won’t bother waiting for an answer. [...] [...] Update: Chip Kidd responds in pissy fashion: I am heartened that you all have such concern for Mr. Kuwata’s welfare. So here’s a question: where were YOU for the last thirty years, while he was languishing in obscurity both here and in his own country? I won’t bother waiting for an answer. [...]

]]> By: Blog@Newsarama » Blog Archive » Chip Kidd responds to ‘Bat-Manga’ criticisms http://comics212.net/2008/11/07/chip-kidd-responds-to-cover-credit-controversy/comment-page-1/#comment-103620 Blog@Newsarama » Blog Archive » Chip Kidd responds to ‘Bat-Manga’ criticisms Sat, 08 Nov 2008 01:13:57 +0000 http://comics212.net/2008/11/07/chip-kidd-responds-to-cover-credit-controversy/#comment-103620 [...] Update: Chris Butcher, who was cc’d on Kidd’s email, offers his thoughts on the matter.   [...] [...] Update: Chris Butcher, who was cc’d on Kidd’s email, offers his thoughts on the matter.   [...]

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